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Caroline Nikon
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Posted - 2009.07.31 00:41:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Kismo
Originally by: Kagura Nikon I've implemented simmulation programs and NO ROF will not be superior. The large increase in "stop to reload" occurrences simple neutralizes all the dps gain.
A tempest with 10% damage per level has MORE damage dealt in 5 minutes than a tempest 10% ROF.I have the program here (linux command line) and can adjust to run it on any combination desired always with 0.1Seconds simmulation precision.
Questions: - Were there sides to the simulation, to simulate losses due to alpha strike vs ROF? - How many ships were involved on each side of the simulation? - How many EHP did each ship have on each side of the simulation? - What is the range on the simulation? - Did you simulate each gun individually or did you simulate the whole (damage = sum([ gun.fire() for gun in ship.guns ]) or gun.fire() * num_guns?) - Is the source available, and what language is it written in?
Comments: - It's fairly hard to believe that 10% damage bonus does more damage than 10% ROF, since 10% ROF is alot higher DPS (2.0 vs 1.5 damage mod, ~33% more raw DPS, ~5% more time reloading) - Which ship has more damage dealt in 5 minutes isn't the only determining factor - you have to consider eliminations on both sides when determining which performs better in fleet environments.
I'm sure I could come up with more.
its simply a simmulation of how much damage a ship deals on that ammount of time. Not combat simmulation therefore HP irrelevant. The simmulation takes into account that usually you loose not only 10 seconds of the reload , but 1 extra second to re click to fire and server respond to that.
Its simple and effective simmulation of the state of the guns every 0.1 seconds with summed damage every time the gun cycles a shot. The tempest has a higher dps on sniper mode (all with long range ammo and all ships with same number of damage mods). But the reload is enough that after the 3rd tempest reload the megatron nullifies that base dps advantage. If you increase rof the tempest gets an extra reload on that time
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Caroline Nikon
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Posted - 2009.07.31 02:20:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Caroline Nikon on 31/07/2009 02:22:11 REload time is gun cycle time + 10 secodns ( in fact i Use +11 to account for the weapon reacticvation) Because reload only starts after the next FIRE command fails. So after the 10th shot a 1400mm with period of 9.7 seconds takes 10+9.7+1(or thmore depending on lag) to fire again
My code is at the computer at work. Will post it here tomorrow, is in C++ easily compilable independent of platform reading volley damage values and rof and clip size from a txt file.
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Caroline Nikon
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Posted - 2009.08.01 02:14:00 -
[3]
`Will give a look later. The slight time imprecisions are due to limiting simmulation to 1/10 of second step. But those would create only minor errors, but if reload is being applied 1 shot too soon that could create much more relevant error
The alpha flag is to simulate the situation of. OK were just killed a ship and next one is primary. ON worse case scenario I jsut fired a shot and need to wait a full reload. Its mostly a tool to illustrate the value of alpha.
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Caroline Nikon
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Posted - 2009.08.02 21:52:00 -
[4]
well we need to keep this discussion alive. Last time when APOC was the oen with a huge thread of 23 pages it got boosted. LEts keep the pressure.
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Caroline Nikon
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Posted - 2009.08.30 11:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Ecky X
It really is important though. Minmater ought to have at least one battleship which is useful on the field, even if it doesn't compete directly with rails and lasers, and that's the one thing I feel your proposal lacks. Huge alpha is simply not useful in fleets, and even with 10% extra optimal, artillery will fall short of other long range weapon systems. You either need to give Minmatar a ship with enough range, or a ship with enough damage that it wont be ignored despite its lack of range. I feel my fix gives a little of each, though perhaps not enough.
In my alliance, all of the Tempest pilots get made fun of... and you know what Pandemic says about them. "You're better off blowing up all the Tempests in your fleet, then engaging at 210km", or something along those lines.
Yeah, it's definitely a weakness within my suggestions. The slight optimal push makes it a little bit better around 180km, with the extra bit of falloff on a pest letting you hit more effectively in that range. 200-210 though it would be pretty useless. I'd like to push the maelstrom into the sniper ship, but you can't really change either of the bonuses. I can't think of an easy fix without completely undoing about half of the other proposed, though.
well my proposal IS making tempest clearly the sniper (even its flavor test say its supposed to be long range), at least the agile sniper.. and when you want DD tank go for maesltrom.
Minmatar CAN be made into reasonable snipers.. EVEN if ccp does not boost range. Just need other main reason to use its power. I still think that should be the old alpha. My proposal gives a MERE 12.5% boost on alpha. As I said is a very light weight proposal. More would be far better. Ideally? 7.5% damage per level... and 5% damage per level.. but I am sure there are paranoid people that somehow would try to stop a boost on tempest that would give it a 37.5% boost on one characteristic... even if those people made nothing when APOC got exactly the same thing (but on range)
Also CCP must make the tempest easier to fit if to be a success as sniper. That allows it to fit 3 range modules (when most snipers can go with 2 only)
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Caroline Nikon
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Posted - 2009.09.04 12:59:00 -
[6]
RR be shield or armor type is irrelevant on ships that do not have a meaningful buffer. Just fitting them on that tempest with no plates and no resist helps almost nothing.
Now .. imagine that same ship you could drop the RCU... put an EANM and you coudl lock at good sniping range with only 2 SB.. so you could also add 1 invul II.
And .. tchan than.. you have an ALMOST usable sniper. That with cheap rigs CAN tank a DD and still be quite fast moving out of bubbles.
Now to make it worth using.. neutralize the range issue (less flavor on fleets) with the falloff on range modules. OR increase its alpha and dps by changign the damage bonus into a 7.5% damage bonus.. or just massively increase alpha by changing the ROF bonus into a 7.5% damage bonus.
These are all EASY changes.. They do not fix ship so much as astrophoibic ones but are much more hard to find any possible flukes of unbalance .. so no reason CCP could give to not do at LEAST these.
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Caroline Nikon
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Posted - 2009.09.21 14:10:00 -
[7]
Please.. do not forget the tempest..... think of the thousands of players that cray every morning when they open the broser and check test server feedback forum ahnd dev blogs and see no boost for tempest.
Think on their sadness.. try to cope with their emotional stress and have pity of our souls
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Caroline Nikon
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Posted - 2009.09.25 15:50:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Cheekie Well I have played for 4 years and then some...
To the OP why in the sweet space we call EVE has it taken you so long to admit the tempest and projo's have problems? It is good to see someone that CAN fly the tempest at a respectable lvl finally give into it being a mess. Yes the Dev's have openly admitted to it being a pile of trash and it is in the process of being reborn.
To those that argue that it is a good ship, You won't convince me or most anyone who fly's it as well as most people who have played EVE for more than 2 months. The devs say that the Tempest/projo's have problems we say they have problems and the quarterly reports warn of the problems as well. Stop being a fanatic and go find something else unfounded that you can preach about.
Till CCP fixes the problems in the thread my two accounts will remain on the sidelines buying GTC's and not playing till the isk runs out. I hope you fix it soon isk is getting thin.
it took them all that time because in past tempest was not bad. Back when NOS worked and fitting a multi spec at the spare mid was a good idea, t2 guns could reach 200km even in a horrible ship, alpha strike was a massive advantage due to much smaller HP pools, active tanks were the norm and not the exception, tackling was limited to 10 km web and 20 km point, there was no abundance of faction ammo and everyone used T2 as high damage ammo....
Back THEN... The tempest was a very good best battleship.
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